Yet again the issue of The Old Firm moving to the English league has raised it's rather gnarled and ugly head. I am torn on the issue - that is I can see both sides. That said, Paul Hayward in the Observer lays out five questions. I attempt to answer them below.
Would England gain from it?
This seems to be the 'en vogue' argument. Various FA wonks and big-wigs now say things along the lines 'well, we can see what The Old Firm gain from it but what do we get'.
This is either idiocy, stupidity or ignorance. Celtic Park is the 2nd biggest club ground in the UK (with a very slightly higher capacity than the Emirates) and Ibrox is the 4th largest (ahead of all bar United and Arsenal in the current Premier League). I'd guess that this would be attractive for many clubs as this would bring a revenue boost for them. Both stadiums are more than twice the capacity of the DW Stadium, Turf Moor and Fratton Park.
Added to this, Rangers and Celtic are more marketable in terms of selling TV rights than Portsmouth or Wigan (and they are better recognised around the world). It is likely that both clubs would add to that capacity if they were in the Premiership.
Finally, and quite simply, it adds showpiece (something that Hayward admits but then goes on to say there are already enough high-level rivalries in England...). Manchester United vs Rangers, even today, is more exciting for all concerned than Manchester United vs Hull City.
Those English pundits that worry about the bigotry are right to do so but anyone who has heard the sickening chants directed towards Sol Campbell or Mido; or about Hillsborough or Munich knows that all is not rosy on the terraces of England.
Would Premier League 2 kill off the other English clubs?
This is pretty simplistic misdirection. Premier League 2 may kill off the other English clubs but The Old Firm joining has nothing to do with this - it is perfectly possible that Gartside's plan would go ahead without The Old Firm. Hayward is a better journalist than this and will know this. England could say 'yes' to the Old Firm and 'no' to Premier League 2. Equally, and probably more likely, they will say 'no' to the Old Firm and 'yes' to Premier League 2. Total tosh.
Would it kill Scottish football?
It might kill Scottish football as we know it. Chick Young thinks that it would be ruinous for Scottish football for The Old Firm to leave. Firms would be less likely to sponsor teams, the Old Firm would still hog the media limelight and Sky and co would shy away from broadcasting the English League. However, it seems very much to me that the Old Firm (and the SPL high heid yins) are killing Scottish football anyway.
Talent is drained from the likes of Hibs and Hearts to the Old Firm. Some of this talent ends up on the bench at the Old Firm. Quite frankly, this system can only work whilst the Old Firm can hoover up these players and still do well. If they were in the EPL, they couldn't buy the likes of Flood, Robson, Killen, Whittaker, Broadfoot, Novo and Naismith - they'd have to buy a better standard of player. Some of these players, like Scott Brown, would probably still move to the Old Firm. However, the smaller clubs would probably retain more of their talent simply because the Old Firm would have to look for better players.
As well as this it would be naive to think that Scottish football are ignorant of the Premier League already. Plenty of people up here support English teams but plenty also have multiple supporting identities - they support Rangers and Liverpool, they support Celtic and Manchester United, they support Hearts and Arsenal. This could continue. Apparently, Manchester United shirts sell third only to Rangers and Celtic in Scotland (Liverpool, as it happens, are fourth). The Premier League may already be ripping supporters away from St. Mirren, Kilmarnock and co.
Would the league be more competitive? Almost certainly. Would supporters retain these multiple identities - supporting Hearts and Arsenal? Possibly. Would a league that was competitive bring in more weekend supporters? Possibly. It may change the league but, in the long run, it may be a more competitive league and a more fun league even if it didn't have as much money kicking about.
Elsewhere in Northern Europe, Norway's perennial champions, Rosenborg attract crowds of 20,000+ as do Danish clubs like Brondby and F.C. Copenhagen in Denmark. In Sweden, IFK Gothenburg attract 18,000, Malmo have a capacity of 24,000 etc. Yes, these teams do not do do particularly well in Europe but then, again brutally, neither do the Old Firm particularly often. Plenty of leagues manage to survive professionally or semi-professionally with big attendances, a decent enough standard of football (I bet F.C Copenhagen would destroy Hearts, Hibs and co) and no real European presence.
Those that argue Scottish football would become like Ireland misunderstand this entirely. No one in Ireland regularly gets over 3,500 attendances. Over 15,000 people turn out to watch Hearts vs Kilmarnock today when the fixture is utterly meaningless. I'd guess that with Hearts actually winning trophies and getting into Europe (even if it meant early exits) players and fans would be more likely to stay there.
Would FIFA allow it and if they did would it bring about the end of the status of the National Teams?
FIFA themselves admit there are other examples analagous to this. FC Vaduz play in the Swiss league but are from Lichtenstein - the winner of the Lichtenstein Cup still goes into the UEFA Cup. Up until 1995, 6 teams played in the Welsh Cup and English leagues. Indeed, three Welsh teams play in the English leagues and this has not destroyed either the Welsh or English national teams. It is not terribly far-fetched to see Cardiff City in the Premiership - would them getting into the UEFA Cup destroy the Welsh FA? No, of course not.
If the associations involved agreed it (SFA, SPL, EPL and FA) and it was allowed by FIFA there wouldn't be a problem - as outlined in Article 80 of the FIFA Statuses. 'Any Association, League or Club that is affiliated to a member cannot belong to another member or participate in competitions on the territory of another member without the authorisation of its current and prospective members and of FIFA, except in exceptional circumstances'. So it is possible.
Would England gain from it?
This seems to be the 'en vogue' argument. Various FA wonks and big-wigs now say things along the lines 'well, we can see what The Old Firm gain from it but what do we get'.
This is either idiocy, stupidity or ignorance. Celtic Park is the 2nd biggest club ground in the UK (with a very slightly higher capacity than the Emirates) and Ibrox is the 4th largest (ahead of all bar United and Arsenal in the current Premier League). I'd guess that this would be attractive for many clubs as this would bring a revenue boost for them. Both stadiums are more than twice the capacity of the DW Stadium, Turf Moor and Fratton Park.
Added to this, Rangers and Celtic are more marketable in terms of selling TV rights than Portsmouth or Wigan (and they are better recognised around the world). It is likely that both clubs would add to that capacity if they were in the Premiership.
Finally, and quite simply, it adds showpiece (something that Hayward admits but then goes on to say there are already enough high-level rivalries in England...). Manchester United vs Rangers, even today, is more exciting for all concerned than Manchester United vs Hull City.
Those English pundits that worry about the bigotry are right to do so but anyone who has heard the sickening chants directed towards Sol Campbell or Mido; or about Hillsborough or Munich knows that all is not rosy on the terraces of England.
Would Premier League 2 kill off the other English clubs?
This is pretty simplistic misdirection. Premier League 2 may kill off the other English clubs but The Old Firm joining has nothing to do with this - it is perfectly possible that Gartside's plan would go ahead without The Old Firm. Hayward is a better journalist than this and will know this. England could say 'yes' to the Old Firm and 'no' to Premier League 2. Equally, and probably more likely, they will say 'no' to the Old Firm and 'yes' to Premier League 2. Total tosh.
Would it kill Scottish football?
It might kill Scottish football as we know it. Chick Young thinks that it would be ruinous for Scottish football for The Old Firm to leave. Firms would be less likely to sponsor teams, the Old Firm would still hog the media limelight and Sky and co would shy away from broadcasting the English League. However, it seems very much to me that the Old Firm (and the SPL high heid yins) are killing Scottish football anyway.
Talent is drained from the likes of Hibs and Hearts to the Old Firm. Some of this talent ends up on the bench at the Old Firm. Quite frankly, this system can only work whilst the Old Firm can hoover up these players and still do well. If they were in the EPL, they couldn't buy the likes of Flood, Robson, Killen, Whittaker, Broadfoot, Novo and Naismith - they'd have to buy a better standard of player. Some of these players, like Scott Brown, would probably still move to the Old Firm. However, the smaller clubs would probably retain more of their talent simply because the Old Firm would have to look for better players.
As well as this it would be naive to think that Scottish football are ignorant of the Premier League already. Plenty of people up here support English teams but plenty also have multiple supporting identities - they support Rangers and Liverpool, they support Celtic and Manchester United, they support Hearts and Arsenal. This could continue. Apparently, Manchester United shirts sell third only to Rangers and Celtic in Scotland (Liverpool, as it happens, are fourth). The Premier League may already be ripping supporters away from St. Mirren, Kilmarnock and co.
Would the league be more competitive? Almost certainly. Would supporters retain these multiple identities - supporting Hearts and Arsenal? Possibly. Would a league that was competitive bring in more weekend supporters? Possibly. It may change the league but, in the long run, it may be a more competitive league and a more fun league even if it didn't have as much money kicking about.
Elsewhere in Northern Europe, Norway's perennial champions, Rosenborg attract crowds of 20,000+ as do Danish clubs like Brondby and F.C. Copenhagen in Denmark. In Sweden, IFK Gothenburg attract 18,000, Malmo have a capacity of 24,000 etc. Yes, these teams do not do do particularly well in Europe but then, again brutally, neither do the Old Firm particularly often. Plenty of leagues manage to survive professionally or semi-professionally with big attendances, a decent enough standard of football (I bet F.C Copenhagen would destroy Hearts, Hibs and co) and no real European presence.
Those that argue Scottish football would become like Ireland misunderstand this entirely. No one in Ireland regularly gets over 3,500 attendances. Over 15,000 people turn out to watch Hearts vs Kilmarnock today when the fixture is utterly meaningless. I'd guess that with Hearts actually winning trophies and getting into Europe (even if it meant early exits) players and fans would be more likely to stay there.
Would FIFA allow it and if they did would it bring about the end of the status of the National Teams?
FIFA themselves admit there are other examples analagous to this. FC Vaduz play in the Swiss league but are from Lichtenstein - the winner of the Lichtenstein Cup still goes into the UEFA Cup. Up until 1995, 6 teams played in the Welsh Cup and English leagues. Indeed, three Welsh teams play in the English leagues and this has not destroyed either the Welsh or English national teams. It is not terribly far-fetched to see Cardiff City in the Premiership - would them getting into the UEFA Cup destroy the Welsh FA? No, of course not.
If the associations involved agreed it (SFA, SPL, EPL and FA) and it was allowed by FIFA there wouldn't be a problem - as outlined in Article 80 of the FIFA Statuses. 'Any Association, League or Club that is affiliated to a member cannot belong to another member or participate in competitions on the territory of another member without the authorisation of its current and prospective members and of FIFA, except in exceptional circumstances'. So it is possible.
That said, I don't think, if FIFA allowed the Old Firm to play in England, I would imagine that the discussions (involving the SFA and FA) would be predicated on it not abolishing them as entities... The blazers are, first and foremost (and wrongly), about self-preservation they wouldn't do anything that would endanger themselves.
If Scotland became independent would the English league let others in (e.g. Feyenoord)
No. Only if the English league wanted them to and only if Feyenoord et al wanted to come. This is nonsense. I don't think this is being floated seriously and it is just some more misdirection.
RCM
PS - I was trying to put together a 'Smokers XI' but struggled to find defenders. Cruijff, Tigana, Socrates, Tugay, Prosinecki, Berbatov, Blanc, Barthez, Vialli but struggled too much with defenders!
PPS - Martin Palermo (focused on this blog earlier in the week) saved the day for Argentina. He is one of those players that, for whatever reason, will make the headlines.
PPPS - (watch it. - Ed) Look what might happen in South Africa because of the World Cup.
PPS - Martin Palermo (focused on this blog earlier in the week) saved the day for Argentina. He is one of those players that, for whatever reason, will make the headlines.
PPPS - (watch it. - Ed) Look what might happen in South Africa because of the World Cup.
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