Saturday, 23 April 2011

Scotland's Gordian Knot


There are any number of contenders for ''Scotland's greatest shame'' - the life expectancy in Glasgow's East End, the obesity epidemic, the astonishing heart disease rates, and the rampant knife carrying gang culture are all contenders.


Indeed, only a few weeks ago, Paul McBride QC said - rather bizarrely - that the SFA were the ''official laughing stock of world football'. Maybe, for once, something as incidental as the Scottish Football Association was our greatest shame.

Now that man, alongside Neil Lennon (the Celtic manager) and Trish Godman (a Celtic supporting politician) is receiving nail bombs through the post because of those comments.

Scotland's shame, once again, is the vicious sectarianism that surrounds its two largest football clubs.




Condemnation of these acts seems obvious and obligatory but at the same time rather sad and absurd. It should go without saying that sending anybody a nailbomb in the post is obscene and criminal. To do so over something so joyous - but ultimately pointless - as football seems utterly bizarre and wrong-headed for the overwhelming majority of football fans. 



(NB: For further reading: I agree with much of what David Goldblatt writes here. I wrote only a few weeks ago about Glasgow's Woes.)

A very potted history...


But first, a caveat:

Despite having grown up in a Scottish (yet non-Old Firm) household and having lived here for eleven years now, I often feel uneasy talking about the complex and myriad matters that spin out of the Old Firm. To truly understand the motivations, drivers and blockers for the individuals involved requires to be immersed in the culture in a way that people like me just have not been. Any comment on the matter will be analysed, checked and assumed as bias towards one side or the other. It is likely that those analysing your words will have a better knowledge of matters even if such knowledge is usually deployed in a rampantly one-sided manner!



The picture in Scotland is gloomy. Further, even without this unhelpful development, it is incredibly complex. For a long-term before these bombs were put in the Royal Mail, politics, religion and violence have intertwined with football on the West Coast of Scotland.

Celtic, for example, were founded by Brother Walfrid, and the point of the club - to begin with - was a means of raising money for his charity. The club would move to become a focal point for the large Irish immigrant community in and around Glasgow. This is neither a good or a bad thing, in and of itself, many clubs around Scotland and the world can tell similar stories.

Celtic's nickname, the ''Bhoys'' is a Gaelicised spelling of Boys. In the 1920s, many football clubs in Glasgow were named ''Boys'' and this is a clear and obvious reference to the sectarian youth gangs of the time - the Timalloys (a Catholic, Irish gang) and the Billy Boys (Protestant, Loyalist gang). This dates from the early 1920s.

So we see that from their very foundation Celtic have had links to religion and, equally, from the 1920s there seem to be clear links between gang culture, sectarianism and both Old Firm clubs.

The behaviour



Let's not have the debate about which side is worse - I always feel it is rather sad when fans say ''but they the are worst''. OK even if that is true what do you want? A medal for being slightly better behaved than the worst?

For years, both sets of fans have taken part in fairly obscene and offensive chanting - this is not necessarily any better or worse than the filth sung at Anfield or Old Trafford but, pointedly, it is clearly tied to wider social issues in a way that the ''Munich'' and ''Hillsborough'' songs are not.



Although, outside of Glasgow, British crowds are pretty much free of religious influence (Spurs use of the word Yid is not overly or overtly religious) it would be naive to claim that Glasgow is unique in meshing political extremism, social tribalism, violence and football. Goldblatt rightly gives the examples of Beitar Jerusalem, Lazio, Red Star Belgrade, and Dinamo Zagreb as clubs with shady links. To greater or lesser extents, others may use the examples of FC Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao as being quasi-political entities for the causes of Catalonian and Basque nationalism. 


In Glasgow we see the coming together of deep-rooted problems: long-standing sectarian and religious intolerance which is far more widespread and visceral than most think (clue: it isn't just football fans and Orange marchers that are bigots in Scotland and the problem is massively more complex than that); poverty; generational unemployment; knife crime and gang culture; endemic drink and drug problems; the loss of industry, subsequent lack of work and impact on the psyche of the city; the shoddy state of state education and many more besides. Many people when confronted with such issues turn to their tribe and, in Glasgow, there are two tribes that go to war - seven times this season.


In divided communities, it is understandable why individuals use football as a vehicle. Often, as a force for good, a team represents a local community and can be a symbol of, and projection of, that community on the pitch. Crowds, and the wider support, are a bonding element for communities - Celtic Park is a place where the Catholic community of Glasgow can come together, sing together and be as one. As I point out above, Celtic has long been an important part of a certain section of Glasgow society. Some of this is no doubt good for the community but on occasion can very quickly turn ugly and problematic.

Many view Rangers as not being tied to a community in such an obvious a way. I'm not convinced that is the case although it may be that the wider community does not use the club in quite the same. Sociologists would no doubt put this down to Celtic fans viewing themselves as an oppressed minority and therefore are prouder of wearing the badge. Either way Rangers can be a force for community good. Equally, they can often chant disgusting things. It may be that, as with most things in life, we will have to acknowledge that these entities are in a process of long-term change.

Glasgow is better for having a place where crowds can come together, create their own identities and create institutions that matter to them and their communities. Glasgow is worse for some of the ways those within those institutions choose to behave. I have written about this matter before in depth (here).

If we accept that football clubs can be used to help bond communities and can be socially good entities, we must also accept that those communities may do things that we dislike and of which we disapprove. Sectarianism is a big deal in Scotland - a far bigger deal than most Scots acknowledge or care to admit - and therefore it is understandable that those involved in such conflict are likely to be attracted to entities that attracts large crowds, personify communities and clash regularly with ''the other side''.

It is at this point - like a child with an open bottle of bleach - a politician starts thinking ''I wonder what will happen if I get involved?''.
  • We will hear calls for the removal of politics from football by politicians who, at election time, will tell us that clubs can be a force for good.
  • We will hear calls for the removal of politics from football by politicians who, at the click of a camera, will do keep-ups with the Old Firm managers.
  • We will hear calls for the removal of politics from football by politicians who, by and large, do not understand the issues at stake and who, when needs be, will arrange summits about the Old Firm to make themselves look better in the national press.

Politicians want politics in football when it suits them and want politics out of football the rest of the time. Let's not listen to them uncritically.

Conversely, there is a school of thought to say that says: Let them sing, let them be offensive. They always have been offensive. From that, if someone breaks the law, we can identify them and charge them. That might be difficult but it isn't impossible. There is a school of thought that football doesn't need any more sanitisation. To an extent, I am sympathetic with this school of thought but I think, in Glasgow, we've gone past the point of acceptability.



Turkey had a similar problem with offensive chanting which the Turkish Football Association tried to solve the issue by bringing in a four-stage penalty process:

  • Offence 1: Warning
  • Offence 2: Fine
  • Offence 3: Play in front of empty stands
  • Offence 4: Dock three points

Sound sensible? I've proposed similar before and I'd guess many readers are sympathetic.

Firstly, I can't see the SFA doing this. Secondly, it just didn't work. As fines mounted and more games were played out in silence, clubs threatened to pull out of the league and cited (as they would in Glasgow!) inconsistency of application. This is inevitable. As we've seen Rangers and Celtic can afford better QCs than the SFA.

In many ways these nailbombs are a horrific and unhelpful development which may set back the cause of anti-sectarianism years. Even if they had not been sent, Scotland should be focusing on this gordian knot. There are no easy policy solutions, sadly.

RCM

17 comments:

tictactic said...

Good morning Rob,

Yet another fine post (and there have been a few recently :) - the Bergkamp-esque Edmundo goal (or should that be the other way round) plus pieces on two of my favourite attacking players of all time – Djalminha and a quick one on Rui Costa.. Nice stuff.

This current post is such a tricky area though as you've highlighted and I do like the idea of punishing the responsible club. UEFA – an impartial organisation (as opposed to the SFA that comes with extraordinary politics) have dealt such measures. Why won't the SFA? Division One clubs are regularly docked points for (in a social sense) something far less damaging in going into administration. So why aren't Rangers punished?

But unlike you (who I appreciate is totally impartial), I'm a Celtic fan and therefore I feel compelled to defend my club on this issue, and as pertinently as possible less the haters hate. :P

Yes the “they're worse than us” argument is flimsy and morally queasy. Celtic like any other sizeable club have their own minority of dimwitted individuals, hell-bent on offending. But while the vile chanting continues rife at Ibrox, there is no such blanket hate at Celtic Park.

And when you delve further into the differences between the clubs, you have to wonder where to draw the line. Where is the point where everybody agrees, “they are worse than us”? Contrast Seville 03 and Manchester 08. Think which side is being punished by UEFA. Think of the “shame” Old Firm where one side received 3 red cards and 9 yellows. And the filthy singing continues.

I don't want this fine blog to be besmirched by the kind of comments not fit for the Daily Mail, but the perpetuated connection that one side's no worse than the other is frustrating for a Celtic fan.

The SFA need to start showing some authority.

setting free the bears said...

Rob

Not a bad account for a "blow in" but, as you said yourself, there are others more informed, albeit with a "one-sided" view (kind of hedging your bets there when you are pulled up about your inaccuracies.

First of all, Celtic, whilst being set up by a Marist brother and by people with Irish Nationalist views, and supported by the Catholic community mainly, has never been an exclusively Catholic club.The charitable funding was never directed at exclusively Catholic causes and there was a deliberate attempt to not be a Catholic Boys club, which they have maintained throughout their history.As a focus for Catholicism, they come a poor third behind the church and schools.
Rangers too, were not a sectarian club in origin but both clubs developed in ways which reflected the Irish Nationalist tensions from 1916 onwards. There was crowd trouble at matches between both clubs and at other football matches in England and Scotland, before sectarian tensions took over.

You are a little sniffy about the argument that "being a wee bit better" than your rival is no badge of honour.

What abut being a lot better?

Celtic have never applied a sectarian employment policy. Celtic fans have never attacked an opposition manager nor sent parcel bombs to supporters. Celtic have never asked players to restrict their religious expressions for fear of upsetting their own support. Celtic fans have not rioted at major events since the 70's and have indeed won Uefa awards for fan behaviour and many expressions of admiration from great names in the game for the home support at Celtic Park. Could you contrast that for a moment with your own club's fans reputation in more recent times? And, of course, Liverpool FC is by no means as bad as other English clubs or the English national team support in the 80's and 90's

Whilst acknowledging shortcomings in our support,I do take offence at your attempt to advance the "ones as bad as the other" line on the basis of your limited research.What, precisely, is the crime count against Celtic?

Secondly, you do go easy on the tendency of football clubs to indulge in offensive chanting whilst assessing this as less offensive than what you perceive to be "sectarian" offensive chanting. You are relaxed about Spurs identification with the Jewish community but you overlook the offense of Arsenal fans making "gas hissing" noises towards them, as indeed do Feyenoord fans towards Ajax. Millwall, Den Haag and many Russian clubs have issues with racist chanting which are more severe than our "local" issue in Scotland. In no way do I minimise it but I am capable of putting it in context. Ask any mainland European to identify hot spots for fan behaviour and I can guarantee that English clubs and the English national teams will appear much earlier on their list than, even, Rangers, far less Celtic.

Maybe you have been imbibing too much from local journalistic sources where there is a desperate desire to paint this as purely a West of Scotland problem, whilst simultaneously decrying the papacy and laying the blame at separate RC schools, and all the while giving themselves a bye on any charge of sectarian bias themselves, because their club is neither Celtic nor rangers.

As with most things in life, the truth is more complex than that. You have made a good first faltering step into this troubled arena. I hope my criticisms will not deter you from undertaking further research.

Rob Marrs said...

Many thanks.

''First of all, Celtic, whilst being set up by a Marist brother and by people with Irish Nationalist views, and supported by the Catholic community mainly, has never been an exclusively Catholic club.The charitable funding was never directed at exclusively Catholic causes and there was a deliberate attempt to not be a Catholic Boys club, which they have maintained throughout their history.As a focus for Catholicism, they come a poor third behind the church and schools.''

Sure - I think it is a wider issue than simply Catholic = Celtic/Protestant = Rangers. I don't think it is too ''out-there'' to suggest that Celtic is a focal point for West Coast Catholics (Catholics in the sense that many people say they are Christians - not practising but a sort of feeling).


''You are a little sniffy about the argument that "being a wee bit better" than your rival is no badge of honour.

What abut being a lot better?''

And here it begins...I'd still say that even a whole lot better, which I'm willing to concede, is still not near enough to acceptability.

''Celtic have never applied a sectarian employment policy. Celtic fans have never attacked an opposition manager nor sent parcel bombs to supporters. Celtic have never asked players to restrict their religious expressions for fear of upsetting their own support. Celtic fans have not rioted at major events since the 70's and have indeed won Uefa awards for fan behaviour and many expressions of admiration from great names in the game for the home support at Celtic Park. Could you contrast that for a moment with your own club's fans reputation in more recent times? And, of course, Liverpool FC is by no means as bad as other English clubs or the English national team support in the 80's and 90's''

Firstly, I think the bomb issue is utterly appalling - and I also think it is somewhat unfair to blame the wider Rangers support for the actions of one individual (or a very small group).

Sure, I'm not saying that Liverpool's support are angelic and, clearly, we will be stained by the actions at Heysel.

''Whilst acknowledging shortcomings in our support,I do take offence at your attempt to advance the "ones as bad as the other" line on the basis of your limited research.''

I don't think I said one was as bad as the other. I said I found the debate depressing - because it doesn't focus on solutions.

Rob Marrs said...

''What, precisely, is the crime count against Celtic?''

The Nacho Novo Song
Consistent Pro-IRA chanting (I've heard it every time I've been to see Celtic - admittedly only a handful of times - and from numerous accounts it was in evidence again against Killie the other night).
Chanting through a Minute's silence consistently etc etc

As I say that is not necessarily any more or less offensive than Liverpool fans chanting about Munich but tellingly it does link to wider societal issues.

''Secondly, you do go easy on the tendency of football clubs to indulge in offensive chanting whilst assessing this as less offensive than what you perceive to be "sectarian" offensive chanting.''

Yes, I do go pretty easy. There doesn't seem to be a major spike in domestic abuse after Liverpool vs Manchester United matches nor is there a spike in stabbings (as far as I am aware).

''You are relaxed about Spurs identification with the Jewish community but you overlook the offense of Arsenal fans making "gas hissing" noises towards them, as indeed do Feyenoord fans towards Ajax.''

Just not true. I wrote a fairly lengthy piece on this matter last week and have condemned anti-semitic chanting on any number of occasions.

Rob Marrs said...

''Millwall, Den Haag and many Russian clubs have issues with racist chanting which are more severe than our "local" issue in Scotland. In no way do I minimise it but I am capable of putting it in context.''

I agree. I think you do minimise the issue of sectarianism in Scotland but that's shades of grey.

''Ask any mainland European to identify hot spots for fan behaviour and I can guarantee that English clubs and the English national teams will appear much earlier on their list than, even, Rangers, far less Celtic.''

Sure. I'd argue English clubs have cleaned up their act enormously. I think Celtic, and to a lesser extent Rangers, have as well but I still think both are not acceptable right now.

''Maybe you have been imbibing too much from local journalistic sources where there is a desperate desire to paint this as purely a West of Scotland problem, whilst simultaneously decrying the papacy and laying the blame at separate RC schools, and all the while giving themselves a bye on any charge of sectarian bias themselves, because their club is neither Celtic nor rangers.''

I don't really get this point. I've never said that this is purely a West Coast issue but I think it is largely a West Coast problem. I haven't said anything about either the Papacy or RC Schools. Should journalists be more forthcoming? Sure, you'll get no disagreements from me. I think all fans, bloggers and journalists should be more honest - Have they taken part in sectarian chanting? How can they assist matters?

''As with most things in life, the truth is more complex than that. You have made a good first faltering step into this troubled arena. I hope my criticisms will not deter you from undertaking further research.''

Indeed not. I think the issue is massively complex. I think the issue is almost too complex for anyone to speak sensibly on. Many thanks for the comments.

It is telling that this piece is being discussed on Rangers forums. They too have thought that the piece is decent enough but are worried about what they perceive as inaccuracies and slights(I am a humble blogger...)

All too often the mainstream media seem to actively want something to occur - it is almost like they want violence to break out so they have something to report upon.

RCM

jasbhoy said...

Typical comments of whataboutery from Rangers fans, yes Celtic fans had one specific chant about Novo, and though not excusing it, Novo liked to be liked by the Rangers fans and tried to be as "loyal" to their cause by being as anti Celtic as he could be, you'd be hard pushed to hear that chant now. As for the "consistently" singing through minute's silences??? can you give us any instance please? the only one I recall was at Falkirk, and that was a few youngsters OUTSIDE the stadium in protest.
The difference between both sets of fans and clubs is, Celtic are a progressive club with fans who look forward and learn, on the whole, from past mistakes, Rangers and their fans on the other hand, are constantly looking back 300 years and learn little from censures from UEFA and who, in the end, will get what they no doubt deserve from the authorities, except their "friends" in the SFA will do zilch and they should also hang their heads in shame.

Gorgy said...

Information on sectarianism in the UK

( it's an anti-catholic country )

http://bit.ly/hxTCoP

How can the state claim that religous discrimination is wrong when the state in the form of an act of Parliament says that it is right?

Gorgy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gorgy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
setting free the bears said...

Rob

I was too busy yesterday supporting my "unacceptable" club to get back to you.

I do not have the time to get into lengthy dialogue over this issue and I'd still state that your first try was a worthy, but inaccurate, effort. So I may be damning with faint praise but it is, at least, praise.

Firstly, your reply:-

"And here it begins...I'd still say that even a whole lot better, which I'm willing to concede, is still not near enough to acceptability."

What clubs have reached acceptability in your eyes? Where do we come in a league table where fans are renowned for racist abuse, nazi salutes, making gas noises towards "Jewish" clubs, and mocking rivals who lost players in air crashes or fans in football stadium disasters? Where lies this "acceptable" Plimsoll line?

Also find it revealing that initial comment "And here it begins..."

That seems to me somewhat revealing of an already made up line. You expect "whataboutery" so any evidence, counter to your original assertions, can be filtered out as mere cavilling and vaccilation rather than evidence of a more complicated scenario than you'd like to paint.

We get a lot of that response from the Scottish media. There can be no one-way sectarianism. There can be no bias toward one establishment club. The default position has been established; both sides are as bad as one another and there can be no departure from that thought. To think otherwise would be to open up the "appalling vista" (copyright Lord Denning, and boy was he wrong).

Now I am not saying my club has no bad fans. We are a club sited in an area of relative poverty with many social tensions and Celtic fans will contribute to the crime stats in that area. Some will do so at football matches and some will do so on match days.

(TBC)

setting free the bears said...

However, your outline of our crime count was not particularly compelling:-

1) The Nacho Novo song- Can I ask how many times you heard this sung within a stadium? I have followed Celtic to most grounds in the past 5 seasons and have been a home attender for nearly 50 years and I would estimate the answer to my question as being in single figures. Still 6 or 7 times too often but not a regular offence. I have heard it more often sung outside the stadiums by groups of callow youths who are out to shock but are not permitted this freedom inside the stadium. I would suggest that, more prevalent and more offensive are the occasions where we have sung "Roamin in the Gloamin" or "Sad OB" towards Walter Smith. Your singling out of the rarely heard Novo song does not fill me with confidence that you have been in Celtic supporters company too often.

2) "Consistent" breaches of minutes silence. A fairly shocking accusation not backed up by any evidence. I attended the Falkirk game and can assure you that the only break in the silence from fans within the stadium, came from a Falkirk fan. The 100 second silence at Ibrox earlier this year was impeccably observed for over a minute until a few coughs were heard toward the end and translated into an "orchestrated" campaign by the untrustworthy Bill Leckie. Did you fall for this? I can recall no other silence broken- maybe you can enlighten me and then lump us in with all the other clubs who were disrespectful.

3) Pro-IRA chanting. Guilty as charged though why it is a crime count might still be open to question. The Celtic support defied heroes like Jock Stein to engage in Republican and Irish Nationalist chanting since the late 60's as we showed solidarity with the Nationalist community in the occupied 6 counties. It was a political response, offensive to many, but not a crime. "Troops Out" marches were allowed under law, despite opposition. Now I would be happy to see the end of this campaign, following the Good Friday agreement. Most of the IRA chanting now seems to be of a "wind-up" nature and is, therefore, distasteful to me, but in no way is it criminal or sectarian, nor, in its origin and history, is it something to be ashamed of. I am proud to support Irish Nationalism and republicanism, even aligned to the "so-called" terrorism of the IRA. Which state was ever founded without a contribution from terrorism? (Washington, Robespierre,Ghandi, Garibaldi, Mandela, Pastor Niemoller, Archbishop Makarios, William 1, William 3, Wallace and Bruce.)

The picture is complicated. You can bring a Daily Mail level perspective to it or you can dig deeper.Do you believe, for example, that there is anti-Irish racist sentiment in this country?

Wishing you all the best in your endeavours.

Rob Marrs said...

''What clubs have reached acceptability in your eyes? Where do we come in a league table where fans are renowned for racist abuse, nazi salutes, making gas noises towards "Jewish" clubs, and mocking rivals who lost players in air crashes or fans in football stadium disasters? Where lies this "acceptable" Plimsoll line?''

It's a very fair point and a difficult thing to define. My point is I think that chanting linked to sectarianism is probably worse than some of, although not all, of the above.

What we don't see, when Arsenal fans - say - disgustingly make gassing noises towards Spurs fans is a concomitant upsurge in violence and domestic violence in North London. Or, if we do, not to anywhere near the extent we see on the West Coast of Scotland.

''Also find it revealing that initial comment "And here it begins..."

That seems to me somewhat revealing of an already made up line. You expect "whataboutery" so any evidence, counter to your original assertions, can be filtered out as mere cavilling and vaccilation rather than evidence of a more complicated scenario than you'd like to paint.''

Not at all - my point was the kneejerk reaction of many Celtic fans isn't to look at themselves or, indeed, for solutions but to ensure that everybody is aware that Rangers are worse. I'm not sure that matters as much as, you know, solving the problem.

I've conceded Rangers fans are worse. Let's move on.

''We get a lot of that response from the Scottish media. There can be no one-way sectarianism. There can be no bias toward one establishment club. The default position has been established; both sides are as bad as one another and there can be no departure from that thought. To think otherwise would be to open up the "appalling vista" (copyright Lord Denning, and boy was he wrong).''

Sure, the media may say this I haven't (see Rangers comment above). Interesting that the ''establishment club'' isn't the one with a former government minister as its chairman.

RCM

Rob Marrs said...

''1) The Nacho Novo song- Can I ask how many times you heard this sung within a stadium? I have followed Celtic to most grounds in the past 5 seasons and have been a home attender for nearly 50 years and I would estimate the answer to my question as being in single figures. Still 6 or 7 times too often but not a regular offence. I have heard it more often sung outside the stadiums by groups of callow youths who are out to shock but are not permitted this freedom inside the stadium. I would suggest that, more prevalent and more offensive are the occasions where we have sung "Roamin in the Gloamin" or "Sad OB" towards Walter Smith. Your singling out of the rarely heard Novo song does not fill me with confidence that you have been in Celtic supporters company too often.''

I don't think, as it happens, where the offence takes place is particularly relevant (by that logic the bombs sent to Lennon and company shouldn't be taken seriously because (a) it hasn't happened very often (b) it took place outside the stadium! That's idiotic, of course, but that's the logical extension of the argument).

I've heard it on the two of the three occasions I've watched Celtic play in the flesh (against Rangers and, bizarrely, against Hearts). Admittedly not a huge amount of times but I can only go on my empirical evidence and some research.

''2) "Consistent" breaches of minutes silence. A fairly shocking accusation not backed up by any evidence. I attended the Falkirk game and can assure you that the only break in the silence from fans within the stadium, came from a Falkirk fan. The 100 second silence at Ibrox earlier this year was impeccably observed for over a minute until a few coughs were heard toward the end and translated into an "orchestrated" campaign by the untrustworthy Bill Leckie. Did you fall for this? I can recall no other silence broken- maybe you can enlighten me and then lump us in with all the other clubs who were disrespectful.''

I was at the Falkirk game and heard the chanting! Some say it was outside the stadium (but admit it was Celtic fans), some say it was

I apologise. I forgot that chanting often isn't heard because Celtic, on occasion, have chosen to mark this sombre moment by holding a minute's applause - why? Because, presumably, (some) fans can't be trusted to behave themselves? Or is there some other reason Celtic are the only club in the country to have held a minute's applause for the war dead?

''3) Pro-IRA chanting. Guilty as charged though why it is a crime count might still be open to question.''

I think that's fairly telling. One would imagine most people would, for example, be sickened by Rangers' fans ''We are not sectarian'' chant or the bastardisation of Fields of Athenry by the same fans. One terrorist group, to me, is as repugnant as another - no matter how just its cause (note - most terrorists think their cause is just).

Rob Marrs said...

''The Celtic support defied heroes like Jock Stein to engage in Republican and Irish Nationalist chanting since the late 60's as we showed solidarity with the Nationalist community in the occupied 6 counties. It was a political response, offensive to many, but not a crime. "Troops Out" marches were allowed under law, despite opposition. Now I would be happy to see the end of this campaign, following the Good Friday agreement. Most of the IRA chanting now seems to be of a "wind-up" nature and is, therefore, distasteful to me, but in no way is it criminal or sectarian, nor, in its origin and history, is it something to be ashamed of.''

This is a narrower understanding of sectarianism than my own definition. Chanting about the IRA does, to an extent, glorify its actions. Its actions include murdering British and, indeed, Irish citizens. I'm fairly certain that the glorification of terror IS a crime under the myriad Terrorism Acts that the Blair government brought in but even if not I think such singing at a football match is unhelpful.

That said, I think you hit the nail on the head many of the songs - on both sides - are probably done in wind-up. All of a sudden songs like 'The Sash''should be able to be sung. The Famine Song, which is deeply offensive, could be justified as a ''wind up'' because many who say they are offended aren't REALLY offended (in the same way that many who get upset about Hillsborough chanting are in many ways delighted to have a chance to be offended).

Singing, for example, ''Oooh ah up the Ra'' is as offensive to many people in this country as ''The Sash'' is to many within the Irish/Nationalist community in Scotland.

''The picture is complicated. You can bring a Daily Mail level perspective to it or you can dig deeper.Do you believe, for example, that there is anti-Irish racist sentiment in this country?''

No but only because I disagree with the premise of the question. I don't believe the human species can be subdivided into race. Even if I did I don't believe that the Irish are a different race.

Do I think there is sectarian abuse towards Irish people (or those who identify themselves as ''Irish'') in this country? Sure, how could I not.

But then, I'm looking for solutions and after all you've helpfully typed and contributed... I'm not convinced you are?

RCM

setting free the bears said...

"This is a narrower understanding of sectarianism than my own definition. Chanting about the IRA does, to an extent, glorify its actions. Its actions include murdering British and, indeed, Irish citizens. I'm fairly certain that the glorification of terror IS a crime under the myriad Terrorism Acts that the Blair government brought in but even if not I think such singing at a football match is unhelpful. "


Actually Rob, I still feel mine is a wider definition of sectarianism than your own because I am placing it in a distinct category from offensive chanting. You still seem to confuse the two. It is a murky piece of legislation but case law provided thus far does not back up your gut(?) feeling that Blair's legislation actually covers this. Did you read the court judgement in the recent case of PC Halaka where the Sherrif deleted the, admitted, IRA chanting from the charge sheet because it did not meet the criteria for sectarian chanting, in other words the IRA were not a sectarian organisation. Tom Devine has confirmed this too in his recent evaluation of the area and he was the main advisor to The Scottish Labour politicians who drafted the anti-sectarian laws. You are not alone in your confusion. Chief superintendent House and his cohorts also misinterpreted or overlooked case law when they threatened to arrest anyone singing Boys of the Old Brigade, a lament for the men of 1916, freely available on CD's and albums by respected artists like the Dubliners and Clancy Brothers. The Police could no doubt make a case for charging you with BOTP or Disorderly Conduct but they cannot shoehorn you into the anti-sectarian laws for this.

How did you manage to overlook these important developments when you researched this area?

setting free the bears said...

Chanting about the IRA may "glorify" or afford respect to the organisation, you are correct. But the founders of the IRA entered government in the ROI in the 20's and Their modern counterparts, Adams and McGuiness, are now politicians in the statelet, Northern Ireland, doing business with the crown. So the bourgeois jibe about "murdering terrorists" does not fit in with your self-promotion as someone seeking solutions when you are still seeing through one end of the lens. British people rightly laud the British Army but they too are seen as murdering terrorists by peoples whose land they have occupied. So if I am guilty of glorifying the violence of terrorism when I defend the Republican cause and its use of violence, then I am afraid you are equally guilty of glorifying the colonial aggression and terror of the British state when you sing GSTQ, Rule Britannia or any other jingoistic number. That does not get us far.

Rob, when you cite "The Sash" as being equally offensive to Nationalists as IRA chanting is to Unionist Protestants, I think you are mistaken. The Sash is actually one of the unionist communities less offensive ditties and neither it nor even, "Derry's Walls", are sectarian songs, in the way that the Billy Boys is. I am beginning to suspect that you imagine songs of faith and culture and identity to be offensive. I would refer you to the CICI (Celebrate Identity, Challenge Intolerance) website which has a section on their Summary of Equality and Diversity Training with reference to Celtic football club. It has given approval to a long list of republican and IRA songs and I have no doubt they would give a pass mark to The Sash and Derry's Walls too, if asked. But they would condemn The Billy Boys and The Famine Song on Rangers side and Roaming in the Gloaming and the wrongly substitute words of "We're on the one Road" on the Celtic side. They would also condemn the Nacho Novo song if they found anyone singing it.

I canot blame you for your ignorance of the nuance of this area but, if you are going to enter into further debate, I genuinely feel that you have to make a less cursory study of the topic as your mis-steps in attributing sectarian intent to songs of culture and identity rather weaken your argument.

As for your final point that you suspect I am part of the problem rather than of the solution, I would respectfully disagree. You may imagine me how you will, Rob, but I am not a man easily roused to violence or hate. Too many people give themselves a bye as non-sectarian, without examining their prejudices too closely. I am a flawed human being with many faults but hatred of any religious or ethnic group is not one of my major flaws.

I would urge you to further research. Tom Devine, CICI and the Halaka case would be a good starting point.

Good Luck with that.

German said...

Sometimes regime takes clannish concept but fails to pay compensation at this state the true person of the belongings has the force to file a disorder against the governance this eligible process is real popularly notable as Backward Condemnation. It is a 100% legitimate practise -to save the human from mistakes of regime departments.
-inverse condemnation